Trespassing....

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Martin
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Trespassing....

Post by Martin »

Over on the Wills Wing update post, a conversation has started about "Trespassing" on posted land. Its an interesting conversation on various pilots experiences and our layman interpretation of the law.

Maybe the conversation could continue here?

I've always wondered what "posted" really meant? Leaving aside, how you got onto the property, what is the obligation of the property owner? Does "one" sign meet the obligation? Does it have to meet some sort of clarity rule? Or is one sign, grown over by sage on a fallen down fence in the middle of "nowhere" good enough?

As a cross country pilot I have used the "ah shucks, sorry man"... "really meant no harm" approach. Many times I find the reaction from the owner is often the byproduct of some A-hole that came before me... often not even a pilot. Usually a good start that has ended with some great conversations. On the other hand, there is no talking to some... in Canada there is a spot south of Golden, a long gap with one lone inviting field who's owner is infamous for some legendary greetings!

Martin
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Ksykes
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Post by Ksykes »

My experience has been that quoting any kind of law is not very helpful with landowners. I'm really sorry, I didn't intend to land here, I'll be off your land as soon as I can, the wind died approach works best, both for you and anyone who might follow. Posted or not, it's their land, not yours. Don't do any damage, don't leave trash and don't drive vehicles on the land without permission.
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JohnFritsche
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Post by JohnFritsche »

How about, "Dude, I don't want to be on your property even more than you don't want me to be on it. Especially if that's the hottest daughter you've got hanging around here. So why don't you go get me a cold one while your ol' lady helps me haul this thing out of here. I'll be faster if she carries the heavy end. And is very gentle with it---it probably cost me more than you make in a year. I'm guessing that based on my estimate of that shack you consider a home and your apparent inability to buy a decent lawnmower. Maybe you can spruce this place up if you learn to cook higher-quality meth that all your redneck tweaker neighbors will pay more for? I'll be much happier next time if you irrigate this land and keep the grass green and about a foot shorter. Do you know how much time I'm going to spend picking all of these stickers out of my bootlaces tonight? OK then, let's get busy. My driver should be showing up with a fat joint any minute. Um, didn't I say something about you going to get me a cold one a minute ago?"
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Martin
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Post by Martin »

Jon, Not far from the attitude a sailplane pilot had after landing out near Chelan.... Met the farmer a few years back, the guy told me all about some rich guy from the "city" that wanted to drive his "rig" out into his crop to pickup his toy. The owner was actually a pretty good dude that got what we do but said the pilots attitude was amazing... so much so he told the pilot, "nope, you have to carry that piece of crap out or I'm calling the Sheriff" ,"your not driving your vehicle out there"... He said it took a whole crew of old men and wives to break the glider down and packed the 1000 yards back to the road... said it looked like "real hard work"

Re the crazy owner south of Golden, the locals know this is red zone, just like its not a good idea to landing near a nuclear reactor, the reception could be spectacular and irrational! So much so... we often talked about, in the dead of night, setting up an old glider in the field just to drive him nuts....

In all my years of flying I don't think I have ever had an out landing that has ever escalated to anything more than a stern talking to, usually ending with a mutual respect. Allot of really cool interesting people out there...

Cheers

Martin
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Mike B
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Post by Mike B »

Martin,

In WA state, it's a pretty basic law for trespassing:
The key words for us are "knowingly enters or remains"
(Also, WA does not have a requirement for the amount or distance for signs to be posted or that they are required)

https://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.asp ... &full=true

RCW 9A.52.070
Criminal trespass in the first degree.
(1) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the first degree if he or she knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in a building.
(2) Criminal trespass in the first degree is a gross misdemeanor.
[ 2011 c 336 § 372; 1979 ex.s. c 244 § 12; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.52.070.]
NOTES:
Effective date—1979 ex.s. c 244: See RCW 9A.44.902.


RCW 9A.52.080
Criminal trespass in the second degree.
(1) A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the second degree if he or she knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises of another under circumstances not constituting criminal trespass in the first degree.
(2) Criminal trespass in the second degree is a misdemeanor.
[ 2011 c 336 § 373; 1979 ex.s. c 244 § 13; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.52.080.]
NOTES:
Effective date—1979 ex.s. c 244: See RCW 9A.44.902.



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WAC 468-300-806
https://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.asp ... 68-300-806
No trespass warnings.
(1) This chapter shall be enforced so as to emphasize voluntary compliance with all applicable laws, rules, regulations, statutes, and policies, and so that inadvertent and/or minor violations of all applicable laws, rules, regulations, statutes, and policies can be corrected without resort to the issuance of a no trespass warning notice. Therefore, prior to issuing a no trespass warning notice to an individual, an authorized officer may choose, in his or her discretion, to first issue a verbal warning and/or a "warning letter" to an individual who exhibits "unacceptable behavior" which does not rise to the level of criminal conduct and/or does not constitute a safety risk.
(2) An authorized officer may issue a no trespass warning notice, which shall be valid and enforceable for a period of sixty days from the date of its issuance, to any individual when he or she has good cause to issue such a no trespass warning notice, which shall conform to the requirements of subsection (4) of this section. Violation of any term of a no trespass warning notice shall constitute the crime of criminal trespass under chapter 9A.52 RCW.
(3) Should an individual:
(a) Violate the terms of the no trespass warning notice; or
(b) Receive two no trespass warning notices within a one-year period, then the individual shall be issued a third no trespass warning notice by an authorized officer, which shall be valid and enforceable for a period of one year from the date of the issuance of the third no trespass warning notice.
(4) A no trespass warning notice shall:
(a) Be in writing and signed by the individual authorized officer issuing it;
(b) Contain the date of issuance, the violation that the person is alleged to have committed, and a citation to the code, statute, or rule violated;
(c) Specify the places where the individual will be expelled from and the length during the period in which the no trespass warning notice is valid and enforceable;
(d) Set out the method for appealing the notice, which shall also include the address where the appeal should be sent;
(e) Prominently display a warning of the consequences for failure to comply with the notice and state that a violation of the terms of the notice will constitute criminal trespass under chapter 9A.52 RCW.
(5) The person being expelled need not be charged, tried, or convicted of any crime or be issued an infraction or have an infraction found committed in order for a no trespass warning notice to be issued or effective. The authorized officer need only establish that good cause existed to support the issuance of the no trespass warning notice.
[Statutory Authority: RCW 47.56.030 and 47.60.010. WSR 13-16-010, § 468-300-806, filed 7/25/13, effective 8/25/13.]
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Ken de Russy
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Post by Ken de Russy »

I work for the US Census. In 7 years and 4000 unannounced visits to every conceivable living situation, I have learned to disregard "No Trespassing" signs. If someone demands I leave, I do so with all due haste. Some have angrily asked "Didn't you see the No Trespassing signs?" to which I say simply "Yes." Most people are quite reasonable and I suspect few are interested in your stories or excuses. I have always operated under the belief that I would only be vulnerable to prosecution if I delay leaving when told. I have seen a few guns and heard some references to guns but I can only think of one or two comments that inferred a real threat. None have ever brandished. I have worked hard to develop a persona, countenance, and behavior that is unthreatening, not imperious, and courteous and friendly in the extreme even in the presence of displays of anger and intimidation. I have learned that it is the rarest of rare that anyone you will ever encounter will make trouble for you if you behave in a proper way. Behave like an ass and expect to have it handed to you.
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JohnFritsche
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Post by JohnFritsche »

Ken de Russy wrote:I work for the US Census. In 7 years and 4000 unannounced visits to every conceivable living situation, I have learned to disregard "No Trespassing" signs. If someone demands I leave, I do so with all due haste. Some have angrily asked "Didn't you see the No Trespassing signs?" to which I say simply "Yes." Most people are quite reasonable and I suspect few are interested in your stories or excuses. I have always operated under the belief that I would only be vulnerable to prosecution if I delay leaving when told. I have seen a few guns and heard some references to guns but I can only think of one or two comments that inferred a real threat. None have ever brandished. I have worked hard to develop a persona, countenance, and behavior that is unthreatening, not imperious, and courteous and friendly in the extreme even in the presence of displays of anger and intimidation. I have learned that it is the rarest of rare that anyone you will ever encounter will make trouble for you if you behave in a proper way. Behave like an ass and expect to have it handed to you.
Yeah, probably best not to be a census worker if your basic demeanor is obnoxious, inconsiderate, and threatening. I don't want to deal with your visit and questions if you're going to be a total jerk towards me while conducting it. You'll be about as successful in your work as a really hostile door-to-door Bible salesman.
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Rob Clarkson
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Post by Rob Clarkson »

Some one just landed out the other day with an extremely hostile land owner. When the land owner threatened to shoot him he called the police. The pilot told the police he didn't mean to land there and it was an emergency. The land owner demaded on pressing charges and was told it was an emergency landing an their was nothing she could do.
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NMERider
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Post by NMERider »

Nothing like landing on the grounds of a prison psychiatric hospital.
Got a retrieve ride in exchange for kiss.

https://youtu.be/nHdMRnPA3tA
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NMERider
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Post by NMERider »

Nothing like being greeted by a gang task-force sheriff's deputy

https://youtu.be/AdRt5j-3Ygc
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