How USHPA CAN work for you

A discussion restricted to the topic of hang gliding.
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AlanC
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Even More

Post by AlanC »

Christopher wrote:in the quoted example you lead with- "Despite Paul's experience and credentials (let's us just say that they are vast), he wasn't allowed to conduct the clinic at Crestline" -who prevented Paul from instructing?
Sorry Christopher, it wasn't my example. I don't know what steps were taken to figure out solutions at the time. My point was that the current process could have accommodated the situation that was described. More importantly, if others are trying to organize instructor training I wanted them to have a roadmap with solutions.

Christopher wrote:Which of your 3 suggested solutions would have accommodated instruction in this case?
All of them.
Christopher wrote:What do you mean by "an administrator from elsewhere"? Have you just nominated the would-be instructor the 'administrator' of the clinic, or does being an "administrator" signify and require something other than holding a USHPA Instructor certification?
I was referring to bringing in an administrator who was not already running a local school (the initially described situation). USHPA Administrators lead clinics and certify Instructors .
Christopher wrote:How many PASA-insured hang gliding-specific schools are there? Could you list them? It would help us understand the extent of the problem.
The list of PASA certified hang gliding schools is here: https://www.pasaschools.org/certified-f ... t-schools/ I'm not sure how that defines the scope of the problem as option 3 (the club-led option) does not require a PASA school. The relatively small number (I counted less than 20) speaks to the need to hold these clinics and why it was important to get the options out there.

Christopher wrote:
Davis wrote:I'm quite certain that all the USHPA BOD members, USHPA personnel, the RRRG volunteers, and Tim Herr have the best interests of the organizations and membership at heart and that they work hard to do the right thing. The problem is the solutions that they have come up with are killing the sport.
The impression from what you've written here, Alan- both in tone and specifics of response -is that you don't agree with the last part of Davis' summation. Is it your belief, Alan, that hang gliding in the United States will survive in some substantial form- or even thrive -under these policies as they are presently implemented? This is a point that must be made explicitly clear- does your understanding diverge from folks like Davis Straub, Steven Pearson, and many would-be instructors? Such a disconnect would profoundly impact moral and confidence of membership for the stewardship of our association. Frankly, most everybody knows and respects these folks- and wouldn't know you or Martin Palmaz, even if enjoying the shade of the same tree.
I think the initial quote could be seen as USHPA being the sole problem. We have two aspects to our sport, PG and HG; both working under the same set of solutions. Yet, one is growing and one is declining. USHPA may well be a drag on both, but it seems unlikely to be the key factor in the decline of HG. I do not believe USHPA alone can kill or save HG but I hope we can be helpful and not harmful in that effort.
Christopher wrote:
AlanC wrote:It is definitely harder, more time consuming, and more expensive to be an instructor today than it was pre-insurance crisis. But, we do have insurance and have preserved places to fly; both of which also seem like essential components of the survival of the sport.
It seems like you're saying 'hurray! -we saved the patient' and Davis, Steven, 'no- you've just put a tourniquet around the neck.' Insurance, flying sites- what are they without instructors? These conjoined twins share a heart, right?
Actually I think you are mostly correct. We got the patient to the hospital and kept them alive when death was imminent, but they are still bleeding badly. The surgery that kept them alive also aggravated the bleeding. Can the community work together to save the patient? As an HG pilot myself, I hope so.
Christopher wrote:
AlanC wrote:Paragliding now has more instructors than before the crisis using the same solutions. Don't get me wrong, I think the small (and shrinking) volume of H1/H2's we're producing is unsustainable over the long term. While overall USHPA membership is up, hang gliding continues to trend down. Why the difference given the similar circumstances??
The "long term" is right now- not tomorrow, not next week - NOW. This last question you ask- it seems really important. Was it just rhetorical? Do you have an answer, or suggested course of discovery? Or are you suggesting the problem isn't with regulation choices, but is purely an expression of hang gliding culture?
Christopher, I think that last question is really important and I really wish I had the answers. There is a group of awfully smart people trying to figure things out that invited me along this year. They know the market better, they have more experience in the sport and they spend virtually every waking hour thinking about the sport we love. I have to be optimistic that our flying community can and will figure out how to have a sport called Hang Gliding into the future, and I hope we can all contribute to that goal.

Alan
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Davis
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Post by Davis »

While it is nice that paragliding numbers are growing, that is not my concern. The focus here is on hang gliding and hang gliding instruction. If it wasn't for the success of the USPA in growing their sport I would feel that the decline in hang gliding numbers was just a fact of life. Their success makes it appear as though it is a failure of the USHPA to adequately address the situation and focus like a laser on this issue. This failure is not a failure of moral character, but represents an opportunity for change. For change to occur the failure must first be noted, accepted, and embraced. There can be no excuses for the failure attributed to outside forces. Once the USHPA embraces its failure it can make success its goal.
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Rebardan
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growth

Post by Rebardan »

What is the leadership of USPA doing differently than USHPA that
promotes growth in membership?

How are they getting the huddled masses off their asses?
Or is their product just more attractive?
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Davis
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Post by Davis »

There was a presentation by the USPA president to the USHPA. Perhaps there is a video of that presentation.
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Dallas Willis
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Post by Dallas Willis »

As a member of both (I'm sure there are a few of us) I would be very interested in more details of this presentation.
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Blindrodie
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Did you just see that?

Post by Blindrodie »

As a member of both (I'm sure there are a few of us) I would be very interested in more details of this presentation.
Apparently, very few at the USHPA BOD meeting were...

Jim

Tow me up. I'll find my way down
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Ben Reese
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Post by Ben Reese »

Davis,

I am glad your driving some points home about HG and BOD failures..

But, why did you vote for the Governance Reform??

You voted NO Against last time, yet this time you voted Yes?

Do you think giving the BOD more power and making them less accountable
to the membership is a good idea?

Is this some sort of Colombo Ninja technique?


B R
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Nuclear
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Re: Even More

Post by Nuclear »

AlanC wrote:
Christopher wrote:
AlanC wrote:Paragliding now has more instructors than before the crisis using the same solutions. Don't get me wrong, I think the small (and shrinking) volume of H1/H2's we're producing is unsustainable over the long term. While overall USHPA membership is up, hang gliding continues to trend down. Why the difference given the similar circumstances??
The "long term" is right now- not tomorrow, not next week - NOW. This last question you ask- it seems really important. Was it just rhetorical? Do you have an answer, or suggested course of discovery? Or are you suggesting the problem isn't with regulation choices, but is purely an expression of hang gliding culture?
Christopher, I think that last question is really important and I really wish I had the answers. There is a group of awfully smart people trying to figure things out that invited me along this year. They know the market better, they have more experience in the sport and they spend virtually every waking hour thinking about the sport we love. I have to be optimistic that our flying community can and will figure out how to have a sport called Hang Gliding into the future, and I hope we can all contribute to that goal.

Alan
The answer to this seems really obvious- Due to the lower numbers of hang gliding it is below some critical mass that can deal with these additional USHPA/PASA/RRG burdens.

Have you tracked what has happened to independent part time paragliding instructors since the new requirements have gone into effect? Maybe the number of students is enough that they can absorb this while part time hang gliding instructors cannot, but it could well be that they are experiencing the same problems only masked by larger and more active/growing paragliding schools. In either case it is clear that under the current setup it is extremely difficult and burdensome for someone to become a part time instructor. When hang gliding needs all the instructors it can get so that we can grow the sport, this is unacceptable.

It's really distressing to see the lack of urgency and initiative from USHPA leadership. Based on your comments and those of Mark Forbes, it seems like the general view is that things are pretty much ok since the overall numbers (thanks to paragliding) are stable or growing.
Matt
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AlanC
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Re: Even More

Post by AlanC »

Nuclear wrote:Based on your comments and those of Mark Forbes, it seems like the general view is that things are pretty much ok since the overall numbers (thanks to paragliding) are stable or growing.
Wow, if I thought things were "pretty much ok" this thread would not exist. The PG numbers are in this thread because I don't think most folks know that PG growth has resumed; that there are more PG instructors now than before the insurance crisis; that our brothers and sisters (and many HG pilots who fly both wingtypes) are making things work. Isn't that cause for hope?

I, you, USHPA, the folks bothering to read this, all want HG to survive. There is good reason to think it can.

- Alan
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Ben Reese
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Re: Even More

Post by Ben Reese »

AlanC wrote:
Nuclear wrote:Based on your comments and those of Mark Forbes, it seems like the general view is that things are pretty much ok since the overall numbers (thanks to paragliding) are stable or growing.
Wow, if I thought things were "pretty much ok" this thread would not exist. The PG numbers are in this thread because I don't think most folks know that PG growth has resumed; that there are more PG instructors now than before the insurance crisis; that our brothers and sisters (and many HG pilots who fly both wingtypes) are making things work. Isn't that cause for hope?

I, you, USHPA, the folks bothering to read this, all want HG to survive. There is good reason to think it can.

- Alan
I did not want to post on this anymore..

Then this above...

Alan, this is the problem.

We Hang Gliders do not care about PG growth!
We care about the survival of HG!

When you say there are more PG instructors than ever and less
HG instructors than ever by your references...

This shows your failure and your lack in recognizing our true concerns here and
questions and solutions presented by the list of individuals below.
Not only you but the BOD as well.

Tiki Mashy said it better than anyone, in more complete detail than anyone!
She also said it early!!

Why don't you take a crack at answering her issues point by point?

Here is diversity in every category and a truck load of experience!

"Tiki Mashy Writes"
https://ozreport.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=59470

Then you can go down this list of other well known and important contributors to HG:

Tiki M.
Steve P.
Mike M.
Paul V.
Steve R.
Davis S.
Remmoore
Sam K.
Harry M.
Steve F.
Christopher L.
Dallas W.
Entelin
Pat H.
Billie
Swift
Miraclepico
Cloud Hopper
Nuclear
Doug M.
Lbunner
Joe F.
Magentabluesky
John S.

This is an incomplete list of concerned and disappointed USHPA members.
These are recent posters and commenters on the OZ report.

If you were left out, please add yourself to this list so Alan C. and MGF can
give all of you the pep talk and endless spin of how growing PG has helped HG.

Despite the obvious and admitted decline of HG schools and instructors, why
we should give them more power and give up our vote!


"Quoting Tiki Mashy" Read the above link yourself for much more...

""I'll get cut-off at the knees from some of my fellow Board members for saying this,
but this Governance Proposal is the USHPA Board once again focusing on themselves,
not the membership, not the instructors, not the schools, chapter or clubs, and certainly
not the real critical issue facing hang gliding and paragliding – lack of growth. Seriously,
USHPA needs to quit re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic and address the gaping
hole in the side of the ship. Our boat is sinking and as a member you and I should demand
USHPA pay attention. This Governance Proposal is just another example of USHPA holding
themselves above the membership. It is a distraction that needs to be quashed.
The USHPA needs to get focused:""

Thanks Tiki, so well said!



B R
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