What national HG orgs publish executive voting records?

A discussion restricted to the topic of hang gliding.
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Joe Faust
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What national HG orgs publish executive voting records?

Post by Joe Faust »

What national HG orgs publish executive voting records?

France ?
Spain ?
Russia ?
Turkey ?
Israel ?
South Africa ?
UK : [[Fred Wilson noted about UK]]
Canada: [[Fred gives note in this topic thread.]]
Australia: [[Fred Wilson noted below about status.]]
USA: USHPA:: no. (But there is a movement to change the matter.)
New Zealand: ?
Egypt ?
India ?
China ?
North Korea ?
Mexico ?
Germany ?
??? … your nation ?
…
Please offer up your nation's national HG org status on the question.
Thanks.

============== Are pilots flying blind?
During a current election campaign in USA, this was found to seed the topic question:

Hello Fellow Pilots,

How long do you think you can fly (safely) with your eyes closed?
Two seconds? Ten seconds? A minute? Close your eyes right now
and imagine yourself flying in traffic or close to the terrain or in
turbulence. How long can you keep your eyes closed before you
start to get … very nervous?

We are flying blindly when we elect Regional Directors without
knowing how they are voting on the USHPA Board. Every Senator
and every Congressman has a voting record, and that's what they
have to defend when they come up for re-election. The USHPA
Board (that includes Rich Hass, Mark Forbes, and most of the
other Directors) have refused to publish their voting records for
their members to see. They want us flying blind when we vote.

If you're a regular pilot who's not involved in USHPA politics, it
can be hard to know who to support. Rob Sporrer has a nice smile
and will shake your hand and tell you he's trying to protect your
sport. But is he? How do you know? And most importantly, why
won't he vote to publish his own voting record on the Board?

If you want a pilot's organization that really represents pilots,
please vote for the two candidates most likely to work for open
voting records on the Board: Bob Kuczewski and Alan Crouse.

You can read about my other ideas for USHPA at:

http://ushawks.org/USHPA2013

Thanks for your time,
Bob Kuczewski
H4/P4, Aeronautical Engineer, Private Pilot, Former Region 3 Director
Phone: 858-204-7499 - Please call me directly if you like.
Email: bob@ushawks.org or bobkuczewski@gmail.com
========================================
Last edited by Joe Faust on Wed, Dec 11 2013, 10:10:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mgforbes
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Location: [44.548,-123.27]

Voting

Post by Mgforbes »

This is just BobK being his usual self, trying to find a "cause" he can champion.

If anybody wants to know how I voted on some particular topic, all they have
to do is ask. I think all of the folks who serve as regional directors feel that
way. I can only think of a few times when anyone wanted to know, and I told
them how I voted and why.

BobK got on this hobbyhorse a while back and keeps flogging the poor thing
hoping it'll spring to life and carry him to fame and glory. The fact that even
the turkey vultures are done with it deters him not at all. :-)

Nearly all of the votes that the BOD takes end up being unanimous, or nearly
so. If they're contentious or momentous, we do a roll call vote. For example,
at the recent BOD meeting where we held a disciplinary hearing, we took
roll call votes for each of the revocations. The EC held a subsequent re-hearing
on one of these, prompted by claims that there was a technical deficiency in
the notice of the hearing. Even though it was just the four of us on the EC
voting (acting on behalf of the board per the bylaws) we still did a roll-call
vote and recorded the decision for the minutes.

For the record, I voted in favor of the revocations...not that this is a surprise,
since the decisions were unanimous and unanimous-minus-one-vote. I
think the one "no" vote on the second revocation was because he thought
we were being too lenient by not making it permanent.

When it's a straightforward committee report to be adopted as the action
of the board, we take a voice vote. "All in favor say aye". Aye! "All opposed".
<crickets> "Motion carries".

There's not much point in "publishing a voting record" when it's a unanimous
vote with no dissent. If someone does dissent, they can have that recorded
in the minutes. If someone feels strongly about the topic and wants it "on
the record", or if it's a close decision, we'll do a roll-call vote. FWIW I voted
against the choice of venue for the next BOD meeting; I thought it's too
expensive, although it's a nice conference location. But that's just because
I'm cheap; I *like* $35 motel rooms, and I've got a favorite I stay at in
Colorado Springs run by a nice Japanese lady. It's a quirky little place right
out of the mid-50's.

Some people just aren't happy unless they're charging the foe, sword in
one hand and pennants flying. When there isn't a handy cause to fight for,
they'll make one up. That's how I see this "issue" that BobK raises.

MGF
Mark G. Forbes
mark@mgforbes.com
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Davis
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Post by Davis »

Joe

Bob K is banned from here.

I would appreciate it if you did not act as his surrogate.
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Joe Faust
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Joined: Sun, Oct 15 2006, 03:59:55 pm

Post by Joe Faust »

Understood, Davis.
The post was 100% of my making. Not any person urged or asked me to form the question; and certainly not BobK. He had no play in this topic formation or my move to enter the question that I formed myself; his interest is one nation. My interest is in the world play for the aims of World Hang Gliding Association.
I am genuinely interested in whether or not national orgs publish full voting records of executives or board members.
OZ Report members from each nation could quickly post the status of their national orgs, if they choose to do so.
The alternative is for one person to trek into each national org and find out the answer.
OZ Report is a natural venue for such a question and answering.

PS:
On other matter, do you ban news ABOUT those who are banned? I do not know your policy and so I ask now.
Thanks.
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Fred Wilson
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Location: Vernon BC Canada

Re: Voting

Post by Fred Wilson »

Mgforbes wrote:Nearly all of the votes that the BOD takes end up being unanimous, or nearly so. If they're contentious or momentous, we do a roll call vote.
Canada was the same. Motions passed etc are posted at http://www.hpac.ca/
Both Annual Directors Meeting (ADM) Minutes and On-Line Meetings. (Found in the "Office" Section.)
- Anything major results in a changes in our Policy and Regulatory Directives (PRD's)

That is until Dr. Amir Azadi was elected BC Representative. His diplomatic approach and democratic stance was that our BOD needed to be much more upfront and forthright about this.
He posted frequently on the WCSC Forum, soliciting input from the members.

Then, several years ago, Domagoj (Dom) Juretic (from Quebec) was elected President, and things have never looked back. All votes are recorded now.
He has been an outstanding President, and things look good for the long term. He stated interest in staying on with the position indefinitely. :D

There is a private HPAC BOD Forum. Who knows what goes in on there…
_____________________________________

British Hang Gliding and Paragliding Association

BHPA AGM Minutes: http://www.bhpa.co.uk/documents/bhpa/exec/agm_minutes

Executive Council Minutes: http://www.bhpa.co.uk/documents/bhpa/exec/exec_minutes
_____________________________________

Australia: http://www.hgfa.asn.au/HGFA/hgfameetingminutes.htm

Minutes from 2009 onwards are now stored on the HGFA forum.
- You have to be a current financial HGFA member in order to (join and) view any of their forums, including their "Classifieds." (Strange…) https://members.hgfa.asn.au/hgfa-login.php
_____________________________________

New Zealand NZHGPA Minutes: http://www.nzhgpa.org.nz/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=18

_____________________________________

National Associations Contact Information: http://www.paraglidingforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=43171

Ian Jarman, Past HGFAustralia Administrator:
"International standardization should be a CIVL/FAI goal. Reinventing something that already exists to an acceptable standard is a waste of our already scant time and manpower resources."
Last edited by Fred Wilson on Thu, Dec 12 2013, 01:55:34 am, edited 16 times in total.
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Davis
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Post by Davis »

There was plenty of open discussion with and about Bob K here long before and right up until he was banned.
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Joe Faust
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Canada clarity

Post by Joe Faust »

Thanks, Fred.
Canada in HPAC seems now to have full voting clarity:
Screenshot:
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Jacmac
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Re: Voting

Post by Jacmac »

Mgforbes wrote:If anybody wants to know how I voted on some particular topic, all they have
to do is ask. I think all of the folks who serve as regional directors feel that
way. I can only think of a few times when anyone wanted to know, and I told
them how I voted and why.
That sounds good on paper, but the reality is that if someone wants to challenge a director in an election, your method all but insures that the voting record will never become a campaign issue. Can you imagine calling up a director you are running against and asking AND getting a straight answer? I think you probably have never been faced with that situation, so I will pardon your ignorance on this subject.

Yes, Bob is prone to hyperbole when bringing up these issues, but there is a kernal of the arguement that has merit. There is no good reason that there is no voting record whether unanimous or not. I recognize that recording and publishing such information requires some work, but it is not a monumental task. If it seems trivial to you, it probably is trivial information for the vast majority of the membership. But there are those that care about it all of the time and nearly everyone would care about a vote at one time or another. Without a recording, nobody will remember for sure who voted what way 3 years ago on an issue. Because there is no official record, a director can claim what ever he wants and it is nearly impossible to challenge.
Brian "The Capitalist Snake" McMahon
Look out for the force without form&acirc;&euro;&brvbar;
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Mgforbes
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Post by Mgforbes »

There *is* a record; just go read the minutes, posted on the USHPA website in the members' section.
Nearly all of the decisions are unanimous; for those that are not, we typically record at least the number
of votes for and against. If it's controversial, really important or one of the supermajority questions
where we need a minimum of 17 votes in favor, we'll do a roll call vote. But for routine stuff that's
not controversial, we don't go through the delay of doing an official roll call. In general, if there's a
topic of interest, and your RD cast a vote, it was a vote with the majority unless otherwise noted.
I just ran back through the minutes for the past few years, and in those cases where a vote was
not unanimous, the dissent was recorded by name. There were a few roll call votes in there too,
and they're all duly recorded.

The board operates mostly by consensus; it's much different from Congress in that regard. We
mostly all get along well, and we hash out the details in committee meetings before the general
session. By the time we get to general session, the committee report is what we're voting on,
and it may get tweaked a bit if somebody has a question or problem. Once we've discussed it
in general session it gets voted on, and almost always it's a unanimous approval. For example,
go read the spring 2013 minutes. You'll find that almost all of the reports were approved
unanimously, except Dennis Pagen voted "no" on the Spring 2014 meeting location. Some of the
reports were amended during general session, with the motion and second recorded by name.

If there's some topic on which you think your RD voted "the wrong way", then take it up with
them and discuss it! The minutes are posted for your reference, all the way back to the beginning.
If some energetic soul (you, for example, since you seem to care) wants to go through them and
generate a spreadsheet showing how every director voted as recorded in the minutes, by all
means go forth and do so! Without the context provided by the minutes, so you know what the
topic was, it's fairly meaningless to do so. But if it floats your boat, go right ahead!

MGF
Mark G. Forbes
mark@mgforbes.com
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Jacmac
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Post by Jacmac »

Mgforbes wrote:There *is* a record; just go read the minutes, posted on the USHPA website in the members' section.
Nearly all of the decisions are unanimous; for those that are not, we typically record at least the number
of votes for and against. If it's controversial, really important or one of the supermajority questions
where we need a minimum of 17 votes in favor, we'll do a roll call vote.
OK, there is a record for the vote as a whole. Lets just agree that for the purposes of knowing how an individual director voted for any given "decision", there is no record for that information. Go back a few posts and look at the Canadian system. That is precisely what is needed for the USHPA.

The informality of the current recording method leaves open the possibility that nobody will definitively know how a director voted for a specific vote. In the vast majority of situations, nobody will care. But when an election occurs, the voting record for an incumbant might be an issue. It could be a single vote or it could be a history of voting that a challenger might want to campaign on or talk about. With no actual record for each director, a director can claim to have voted against something that was passed. They could claim to have abstained. They could claim have voted for something that they actually didn't vote on or voted against. If you don't record how each director officially voted, then there is no official record for that director, so they can claim whatever they want. They might not even remember how they voted and just plain guess, if put on the spot.

I don't know how much smaller the Canadian HG organization is, but if they can record the information, so can the USHPA. We aren't living in the stone ages here, it isn't so much trouble for someone to keep a simple electronic document on the votes and publish the information on the USHPA members section. It is a formality, and considering the level of formality that the USHPA requires for things like site insurance and safety assessments, I don't think it is asking for a lot for the leadership to be on record for votes.
Brian "The Capitalist Snake" McMahon
Look out for the force without form&acirc;&euro;&brvbar;