Landings

A discussion restricted to the topic of hang gliding.
Previous topicNext topic
User avatar
Jim Rooney
Posts: 2734
Joined: Mon, Mar 03 2003, 12:24:46 pm
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand

Post by Jim Rooney »

Too right Jason.
Yes, I paint with a broad brush ;)

Rich Chzouskus (hahahaha... I've never spelled his name right!) is an other fine example... we've had a number of very cool chats about this and other topics.

I'm sure Rob McKenzie and Joe Greblo also do a fine job. I'd be absolutely amazed if they didn't.
I'm sure there's others as well.

Hell, I've compiled my list from years of teaching with Sunny and Adam at Highland Aerosports.

My videos came about from these discussions... I thought... hell, we talk about this all the time... and none of the pilots (that we didn't teach) listen. Out come all the old misconceptions and arguments, and I thought "Stuff that!".

I can't tell you how many times I've argued with people that chime in once "the landing discussion" starts... every Tom Dick and Harry loves to put their two cents in... and it floors me that people that are whacking the hell out of their gliders tend to talk the loudest!?

I grabbed my camera and glider and figured I'd put an end to it by showing people... or as I call it "The proof is in the pudding".
If I talk about it, I'm asking people to trust my opinion.
If I show them... well... there's no need... my "opinion" is irrelevant... you can see it works.

By and large however, landing skills are highly neglected.
There are so many reasons for this.
And yeah... you won't find this stuff in the manuals.

I'm glad your instructor taught you well.
You reap the benefits every time you fly.

Jim
User avatar
Rob Clarkson
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue, Aug 23 2005, 12:12:11 am

Post by Rob Clarkson »

How do you learn to land before you learn to fly? You can't learn to land until you fly. Most students do well on the training hill. Of course you want to see that before you move them up the hill. But very few still have good landings when doing a first high flight and getting out of ground effect for the first time. It's not the same thing. Go back and read each of Jim's methods and you will see why. Since you can't learn to land before you fly you really need to learn to fly first.
User avatar
Rebardan
Posts: 167
Joined: Sat, May 21 2005, 11:24:42 pm
Location: Crestline, CA

Post by Rebardan »

Davis' original post on this thread mentions pilots climbing up the dt's
and floating in. Hanging from the a frame doesn't let the pilot detect
when the 'zero bar pressure' point is.
In this video:
http://vimeo.com/34922059
at the landing shown from 0:45 to 1:00 note the pilot flares from low on the dt's while in
a single suspension harness. He's neither tall nor long armed, but rather
allows the glider to tell him when to flare by not hanging from the uprights.

landing 101
User avatar
Jason Rogers
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed, Mar 05 2008, 08:03:52 pm
Location: Port Macquarie Oz

Post by Jason Rogers »

Rob Clarkson wrote:How do you learn to land before you learn to fly? You can't learn to land until you fly. Most students do well on the training hill. Of course you want to see that before you move them up the hill. But very few still have good landings when doing a first high flight and getting out of ground effect for the first time. It's not the same thing. Go back and read each of Jim's methods and you will see why. Since you can't learn to land before you fly you really need to learn to fly first.
I think Chris Boyce was on a similar wavelenth to Jim. He felt that students have little or no "feel" and so we learnt sort of by wrote to start with.

The first lessons were about landing, not about taking off. What he told us was that the glider needs to stall, all the way across the wing. He drew a metaphor with a crow landing. It comes in fast, flys level across the ground and then pulls up hard.

He said the bar can go out, but must *never come back*. Start with the hands low on the downtubes, running into the wind and pulling in a bit then ease out. The glider had to stay the same height off the ground. If it began to balloon up, you could hold that position until it dropped back down a bit but *never pull in*. As the glider lifts you slowly slide your hands up while releasing the pressure. When there's no pressure (trim) push out and up as you slide your hands up. Let the glider stop you, don't throw your legs forward, keep them back.

We had to practice that on the flat until we could stop the glider with a clean full stall. Had to be a full stop with no steps and no feet forward. Instructors ran along side getting the glider started initially and controlling roll. Then we moved on to learning take off and how to turn.

I don't contend that it was *perfect* way of teaching, but we did get the idea that landing was the most basic and important skill. I you didn't have that down, you didn't get to do anything else.
I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of certainty about different things but I'm not absolutely sure of anything and many things I don't know anything about…But I don't feel frightened by not knowing things. Richard P Feynman
User avatar
Rob Clarkson
Posts: 326
Joined: Tue, Aug 23 2005, 12:12:11 am

Post by Rob Clarkson »

I don't disagree that we don't do enough training on how to land and in general hang glider pilots don't land very well. Keeping pilots safe is my main priority. I don't care if they can land or ever get off the ground as long as they don't get hurt.

We are talking about the first day here and learning the basics from scratch. Yes you have them run on flat ground and get a feel for the glider. If this is the point you are getting them to flair and making that the first priority before you ever move them up the hill, you are going to get people hurt and break the glider. I want to see students have good speed and keep the glider going straight and level (learning to fly it). I don't even want to see them push out never mind a full on flair. If the wings are not level and they full on flair with any speed bad shit is going to happen. I'd rather see them fall down and slide on their belly. No harm done. Until I am sure they can keep the glider straight every flight and be aware of when it isn't and able to correct it I don't want to see a full on flare. I've never seen any one gain this skill the first day. Once they have the skill to get the glider to fly straight then take them back to the flat ground and work full on flares.

You can't learn to land before you learn to fly. Trying to teach it that way is going to get people hurt and gliders broken.
User avatar
Jim Rooney
Posts: 2734
Joined: Mon, Mar 03 2003, 12:24:46 pm
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand

Post by Jim Rooney »

This is one of the luxuries of AT training.

By the time you get to teaching foot landing... it's the only part they don't know. By that point, they can already setup a good approach and lazily be picking daisys in ground effect.

I won't say training for good flaring can't be done from day 1, but I gotta back Rob up on it being the trickier route.
Ya gotta have the right student and loads of time/patience to make it work.

BTW, that South Africa video that was just on the front page a few days ago is one damn excellent example of teaching done right.

Jim
User avatar
Jason Rogers
Posts: 302
Joined: Wed, Mar 05 2008, 08:03:52 pm
Location: Port Macquarie Oz

Post by Jason Rogers »

I dunno… That's just how it was done with me. My experience with teaching is pretty much limited to my own experience with learning.

We didn't break any gliders and no-one got hurt. I found *personally* that knowing I could stop the glider made the rest of the learning process pretty easy. I would imagine that if I didn't feel like I could stop then it would be hard to have the confidence to fly fast.

Flaring when not quite level wasn't an issue as there was an instructor on each side controlling roll. At that point we didn't know how to control roll anyway.

I don't know if that's how Chris still does it, we're talking 30 years ago now, I'm sure that he's changed his process somewhat!

=:)

PS, at that time there was no aerotow, no winch tow and no tandem. Some guys were car towing (with a rope on the towbar and no way to measure tension) but no-one in their right mind did it and certainly not students. Chris built the first winch I ever saw or even heard of specifically for training and he did something sort of similar to scooter tow with it except that he had an experienced pilot on the throttle listening in on the radio. That was years after I learnt though.
I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of certainty about different things but I'm not absolutely sure of anything and many things I don't know anything about…But I don't feel frightened by not knowing things. Richard P Feynman
User avatar
Tormod
Posts: 398
Joined: Thu, May 12 2005, 03:05:00 pm
Location: Oslo, Norway

Post by Tormod »

Another issue is getting to that flare window in a good way, all to often I see pilots doing s-turns (they call it figure eights) to lose height, often doing the last turn a few feet above the ground. How they expect to manage anything in resemblance to a flare after that is beyond me, more often than not they wack.

A downwind, crosswind and straight final is what works best, (or be done with those s-es way out). In short, give yourself time to prepare for landing.
Rolf Sauer
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue, Feb 02 2010, 01:38:18 pm

Landings

Post by Rolf Sauer »

I am referring to the video in Rebardan's post (http://vimeo.com/34922059)
As he says, the pilot between 0:45 and 1:00 comes in and makes a beautiful
landing.
But what about the next-following one (between 1:00 and 1:25): he has a
similar (topless) glider, seems to do everything right, and yet - his performance
is less than perfect! (Actually, it reminds me of many of my landings)

So: what should he have done better? Should he have pitched up even more?
Should he have flared earlier- or later? Should he have kept his legs further back
(and risk falling on his belly?),
Rolf
Rolf Sauer
User avatar
Jim Rooney
Posts: 2734
Joined: Mon, Mar 03 2003, 12:24:46 pm
Location: Queenstown, New Zealand

Post by Jim Rooney »

In a word... wind.

Notice the windsock before that first one.
He's landing into wind. Not a whole heap, but enough to mask bad technique.

Let me be clear about this because it's important.
Those are both bad landings.
One just "worked" in spite of his bad technique.

The second video is much later in the day... notice the long shadows. If you watch long enough, you'll see the windsock is completely limp.

This is a very common mistake.
People trick themselves into believing that their landings are "good" simply because they worked out.
If your technique is good however, it will work every time.
Remember, your keel should hit the ground.

First mistake... the cardinal sin... he approaches the ground at trim.
It's an uphill battle from the word go.

When should he have flared? When he did the "pump fake".
What the pump fake tells me is that he is unaware of when to flare. He has the sense that he should, but he's afraid to commit to it because he doesn't really know when. He's just "feeling it out" and has probably been bitten a few times.
If he knew when to flare, as opposed to guessing, he'd slam that puppy over his head instead of "testing the water" and he'd have had a beautiful landing.

Everything else is a result of this not knowing.
And it's not lacking a "feel" for it... knowing isn't a "feel" thing... there are distinct signs... you just need to pick one and use it.
Which sign is determined by which technique you use, but they all have a sign.

Trim+1 is trim(plus one second).
The two step is the instant the glider stops climbing.
I can point to very specific and concrete times to flare... not a "feeling".
This is the difference.

Jim
Previous topicNext topic