Landings

A discussion restricted to the topic of hang gliding.
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Javad
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Round out

Post by Javad »

Hi guys,

I know this topic is old but I think my question is more relevant here than anywhere else so I post here.

In the techniques that are introduced by Jim, he says "round out" into ground effect. what does it mean exactly? I mean I know it means you have to reduce speed but by how much? is it still higher than trim, at trim, lower than trim? is it different in different techniques? like for example higher than trim in "Trim+1 technique" but at trim speed in "the moon walk"?
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Remmoore
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Post by Remmoore »

You're probably not going to find this response very helpful, but I think the answer really depends on a number of variables. Wind strength/gustiness, terrain, and type of glider are all contributors in the decision that may change with each flight.

For example, I often land my rigid on relatively steep hillsides with some measure of leeside rotor. While I'm approaching the slope with plenty of energy, the roundout is followed almost immediately by the flair. When I'm at Funston, landing in smooth (which isn't a certainty, BTW) coastal air, my whole transition between approach and flair is is much smoother and drawn-out.

Unless you only fly in the same location and conditions, I don't think there's an easy answer to your question. You need a wide variety of landing techniques at the ready, and awareness of when to select the best options.

RM
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Javad
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Post by Javad »

Thanks RM.

So , if I understood right, in any case you still maintain a higher speed than trim after round out. How soon you flare depends on the conditions , but as you enter the ground effect you are pulling in and flying faster than trim, right?
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Mike B
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Post by Mike B »

Javad wrote:Thanks RM.

So , if I understood right, in any case you still maintain a higher speed than trim after round out. How soon you flare depends on the conditions , but as you enter the ground effect you are pulling in and flying faster than trim, right?
Correct.

Fly faster than trim speed down into ground effect.
Bleed off excess speed.
Flare about (roughly) 1 sec after your trim speed (if the glider is trimmed correctly)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i3S4mARne0
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Remmoore
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Post by Remmoore »

Yeah - that's an absolute for me. I always enter ground effect at better than trim. It's only a question of how much speed I think I need in any given situation.

BTW, you mentioned the "Moon Walk" landing technique - IMO, that's only for flight park pilots. There are so many official LZ's and countless XC LZ's where attempting the Moon Walk is going to end very badly. Sure, there are random places I've landed where I could've done it, but no landing is more satisfying than a no-stepper. Attempting to achieve the no-stepper should always be the goal - even if it ends in a few steps. The real world outside a flight park is too full of hillsides, rocks, holes, brush, weeds, and other obstacles to spend time trying to perfect the Moon Walk.

RM
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Blindrodie
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And in addition…

Post by Blindrodie »

It also helps to have a vario that "tells you" when trim speed is reached, but that involves $$ and gear and the right polar and oh yeah, experience! Good luck on all this. Landing seems to be the one thing that eludes so many year after year! Experience (without a trim/stall alarm) will get you to the point of "knowing" what your trim speed feels like. Always changing with the conditions...

Last edited by Blindrodie on Tue, Mar 10 2020, 11:13:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jim

Tow me up. I'll find my way down
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Mike B
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Re: And in addition…

Post by Mike B »

Blindrodie wrote:It also helps to have a vario that "tells you" when trim speed is reached, but that involves $$ and gear and the right polar and oh yeah, experience! Good luck on all this. Landing seems to be
the one thing that eludes so many year after year! Experience (without a trim/stall alarm) will get you to the point of "knowing" what your trim speed feels like. Always changing with the conditions...

All you need is a basic airspeed indicator to find your trim speed. Those are inexpensive. Tufts on the wing to find your stall. No polar needed to find your trim speed. Then you can adjust your hang point if to fast or slow.
In ground effect, there is a moment where you are not pulling nor pushing out.
Give it a sec (roughly) and flare
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Blindrodie
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Thanks

Post by Blindrodie »

Givin' away all those secrets Mike! All true...

Cool
Jim

Tow me up. I'll find my way down
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Mike B
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Re: Thanks

Post by Mike B »

Blindrodie wrote:Givin' away all those secrets Mike! All true...

I dont want them to be secrets!
"oh shit here comes the ground" takes the fun out of flying.

Hopefully it helps Javad or the next pilot.

We are all in this together.
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Javad
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Post by Javad »

RM, Mike and Blindrodie,

Your feedbacks are really appreciated. I am still learning and landing is an issue for me and most hg pilots over here. I am trying to translate and transfer these info to them as well. Here they say you have to fly at trim throughout your ground skim phase, which contradicts what you guys say and I think what you say makes more sense and I am definitely going to try and learn this technique.

RM, your note on the difficulty of moonwalk landing makes sense to me as we usually fly in rugged mountain sites.

Mike, that's a nice landing video! your idea about using airspeed indicator in landing is new to me, thanks.

Blindrodie, thanks for the note about vario. Mine is audio-only but some of my friends here have more advanced varios. I will tell them about it.

so far, I have usually ran out the landing or was lucky with flares but there were times that I messed up the flare. some because of late flare and some because of weak flare. So I will try trim+1 to see how it works for me.
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