Did the Italian team break the rules at the 2009 Worlds?

A discussion restricted to the topic of hang gliding.
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The Oz Report
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Did the Italian team break the rules at the 2009 Worlds?

Post by The Oz Report »

<i>I believe that the Italian team and Alex Ploner deserved to win the 2009 World Championships</i><span class="GoogleMapLink"><a href="http://ozreport.com/GoogleEarth/N 44 18 47.4,E 5 50 01.8,Laragne-Montéglin, France"><img src="http://ozreport.com/images/GoogleEarth.gif" alt="N 44 18 47.4,E 5 50 01.8,Laragne-Montéglin, France"></a>(<a href="http://ozreport.com/GoogleMap/N 44 18 47.4,E 5 50 01.8,Laragne-Montéglin, France" target="_new" style="text-decoration:none">Laragne-Montéglin, France</a>)</span><p>We are staying with Scott Barrett and Monica in Belmont North near Newcastle (Australia) for a few days and we were discussing <a target="_blank" href="http://ozreport.com/13.240#0">telemetrics</a> in the evening of my first day here. He stated that he had earlier been interested in developing a telemetric system for hang gliding, but when he consulted with Paul Mollison, who works nearby at <a target="_blank" href="http://www.airborne.com.au/pages/aboutu ... irborne</a>, and who wrote parts of the <a target="_blank" href="http://www.fai.org/hang_gliding/system/ ... .pdf">CIVL Sporting Code</a>, he found out that Paul had written the rules to specifically disallow telemetric systems. Scott therefore stopped thinking about how to develop such a system.</p><p>Here is the section of the CIVL sporting code that is relevant to telemetrics:</p><p class="BN">"2. 19.2 Radio</p><p class="BN">When radio transmitters are permitted in the local regulations one transmitter is permitted in each competing glider,..."</p><p>In early November of 2009 I received an email from Flavio Tebaldi, the Italian team leader and organizer of the 2011 World Championships, with attachments that highlighted the <a target="_blank" href="http://ozreport.com/13.240#0">DSX telemetry system</a> for hang gliding. I published an <a target="_blank" href="http://ozreport.com/13.240#0">article</a> about the system in the Oz Report.</p><p>Before I published the article I asked Flavio a series of questions about the DSX system. He wrote back on November 5th at 3:41 PM:</p><p class="BN">"During last world championship in Laragne my team used five of these prototypes and I was able to follow my pilots on my netbook in real time. Safly helped us to win significantly, especially for tactics."</p><p>I didn't think any more about this (other than wonder how this would all play out in the future if we adopted these systems). But, after discussing this issue with Scott, I went back to look at this email from Flavio, especially after Scott stated that if he had known that the Italians were using this system at the time he would have registered a protest. Flavio's statement here is pretty strong and if true is in direct violation of the CIVL Sporting Code for Category 1 competitions, like the Worlds.</p><p>I wrote to Flavio again that evening asking him how he squared his statement above with the rule quoted above. He wrote back quickly:</p><p class="BN">"Unfortunately we couldn't use DSX system as we would because Vodafone didn't activate the special offer for data communication in France. The result was that the four instruments we had, stopped to work the day before the competition started... :-(</p><p class="BN">Over the next few days I tried many times to call Vodafone in Italy to reactivate the offer, but finally I was able to only follow one pilot on the last competition task (Christian). For sure it was very useful to follow Christian's movements on my netbook and to know where he was respect to the other pilots that were following him some kilometers behind."</p><p>I have slightly edited Flavio's responses to correct errors in his English. This is a much different statement of what went on at the 2009 Worlds than his previous version. What was going on?</p><p>After receiving this post from Flavio I asked him right away if CIVL is going to change its rules to allow for a telemetric system. He wrote back that evening:</p><p class="BN">I hope they can change the rules at the next 2011 plenary, to use the system in the Worlds. For sure this year we will try to use it with a couple of pilots to test the system.</p><p>From Flavio's responses it seems to be the case that in fact at least Christian was carrying a second transmitter and transmitting with it on the last day of the 2009 Worlds in violation of the CIVL Sporting Code. Flavio's November 5th response indicates that all Italian pilots on the five member team were carrying second transmitters and transmitting on them in violation of the CIVL Sporting Code (if they carried a standard 2 meter radio for voice communication).</p><p>Flavio's last statement (and his earlier response) indicates pretty clearly that he knows that the use of these instruments is in violation of the CIVL Sporting Code (if the pilot also has a standard 2 meter radio that he is transmitting on using voice communications). It is also the case that he and the Italian team at least intended to use the Safly transmitters during the 2009 Worlds. Just to be clear, a cell phone or a satellite phone is a radio.</p><p>I don't believe that the section of the CIVL Sporting Code above would be interpreted to disallow pilots from carrying cell phones that were turned off and essentially inaccessible in the air. But that it would be interpreted (especially as it was written with this purpose in mind) to disallow telemetry systems as were apparently being used by the Italians at the 2009 Worlds, unless they were the only radio transmitters carried by the pilots.</p><p>The local regulations of the 2009 Worlds state:</p><p class="BN">5. 1 RADIOS & MOBILE PHONES:</p><p class="BN">A 2m, VHF (widebanded: 140 to 144MHz) radio transceiver compatible with the competition frequency and able to receive and transmit on the FFVL frequency, 143.9875MHz is mandatory. Team leaders must be able to monitor the competition frequency during tasks as must pilots without a team leader. Radios are for communication between competitors, team leaders, drivers and the organisers. Only frequencies in the range allocated by the organisers may be used. Information on the competition radio frequency and the range allocated for pilot use will be available at registration. All pilots and crews MUST submit their team frequencies and mobile telephone numbers at registration. This information will be used by the competition and/or safety directors for safety purposes. (2.19.2)</p><p>As 2 meter radios were required to be carried by the competitors, this would rule out the use of a telemetry system at the 2009 Worlds.</p><p>What am I missing here?</p><p>Upon further questioning I got the following from Flavio the next day:</p><p class="BN">Christian used it only on one flight and I decided to give to him the only working tracker for safety reasons because his radio was discharged. No, the system didn't work in real time (very bad French cellular net). There was a long delay (about 15/20 minutes), was impossible to collect any vocal information in the same time with Christian track.</p><p>Which edition of Flavio am I to believe?</p>
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Danielvelez
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Post by Danielvelez »

So only one radio is possible at the momment... What about dual band radios? the ones that can listen to two radio frecuencies at the same time?
If this applies as "one radio", then we should also think that you can have your 2mt radio in your harness turned off, and then you could have a cell phone with bluetooth on your helmet, for using gprs to send gps position on real time tracking, and also for calling or receiving calls from your ground crew that`s following your tracking via pc.

Anyway, this is not Tennis. The training can shout things to the pilots. The telemetry is only for position awarness. Shure you could use it to speed up, but then it`s almost the same as having a nice girl on goal telling the wind readings for final glide...

Even the brasilians that they are know for their fantastic team flying, are using something better, called "talking and shouting telemetry". Their radio frecuency is like something that one should visit at least one time on competition, to see how they are constantly giving feedback.

I`ll bet everybody fly on teams helping each other, even with more important telemetry feedback (pre-processed) than just a small animated icon on a screen. FAI should change this... what did they do about the last Gliding Championship down on Chile that Davis promoted on his ozreport?

It was really something to look forward. To be able to see on real time what is happening up there is really amazing. It does not mean that if somebody tells another pilot by radio that there`s another pilot 5 km upfront on what seems to be a +5m/s climb can get you out of the competition arena... you could have hear that info on many ways... we have leading bonus basically to counteract somehow this kind of behaviour.

Christian did not won because of this system... but I`m pretty sure that this system made things quite exciting and appealing to Flavio on the ground, and made him think that because of this there was an advantage... Those advantages have been there all the time, the difficulty is how to make them to a good use. I`m pretty sure that Christian did not took a single decision based only on any info that somebody could have gave him... Nor I could think that even when we`ve got telemetry for everybody we would start making telemetry decisions...

I`m supporting this motion to give hanggliding telemetry and tv coverage!...
Daniel Velez
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Davis
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Post by Davis »

So only one radio is possible at the moment…
Actually, that has been a rule for a very long time.
What about dual band radios? the ones that can listen to two radio frequencies at the same time?
The rule is against ransmitters, not against receivers.
If this applies as "one radio", then we should also think that you can have your 2mt radio in your harness turned off, and then you could have a cell phone with bluetooth on your helmet, for using gprs to send gps position on real time tracking, and also for calling or receiving calls from your ground crew that`s following your tracking via pc.
The rule wouldn't apply to radios that weren't turned on, it wouldn't apply to Bluetooth, GPSes don't transmit, but it would apply in Category 1 competitions to separate radios that transmit your position (as I have detailed).
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Knumbknuts
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wow

Post by Knumbknuts »

helluva scoop, Davis.

whatever it leads to, it's already interesting reading.
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Davis
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Post by Davis »

I like to have people speak for themselves and Flavio was very accommodating. :-)
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Post by Davis »

Here is the complete rule:
2. 19.2 Radio

When radio transmitters are permitted in the local regulations one transmitter is permitted in each competing glider, one for the use of the team leader and one in each of a maximum of two retrieve vehicles. These radios are for communication between competitors and between them and the organisers. They may not be used to contact ATC other than for obtaining permission from an airfield to land on it, unless the organisers specifically require this. Permitted frequencies will be specified in the local regulations. The above does not apply to emergency location transmitters (ELTs), which are incapable of voice transmission.
I interpret the last sentence as to apply to transmitters that send out one location in an emergency, not something like the SPOT when it is used to provide a track in the same manner that the DSX system does.
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NMERider
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Post by NMERider »

Davis wrote:..............I interpret the last sentence as to apply to transmitters that send out one location in an emergency, not something like the SPOT when it is used to provide a track in the same manner that the DSX system does.

Davis - I think you have uncovered the makings of the hang gliding equivalent of 'doping' in bicycle racing. :shock:
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Rob Clarkson
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Post by Rob Clarkson »

Daniel it was Alex that won not Christian. If you watch the interview with him after the last day he say's I could not fly after I was told Manfred had landed. Don't say that having information on where other pilots are dosn't affect decissions you make. It makes a big time difference.
I have no issue with team flying or allowing live tracking. I have a big issue with manditory live tracking. Manfred, Oleg and other top pilots don't fly with radios. Talking with Georoff about it his comment was you get tired of just giving all the time. The point is that right now it's a choice that pilots get to make. If you make live tracking manditory the pilots no longer get to make that choice. Now you will take away even more incentive to lead out. I like the leading bonus but we never use it.
Thier is no way to stop teams from passing other pilots locations on to thier team members. Radio, phone calls text messages. What's the plan? Lock all the team leaders up to make sure they don't pass on any information? I can watch a task in Calgary and pass on pilot locations to my buddies in Florida, I don't even have to be in the same country. I can't see the top pilots supporting manditory live tracking. How ever I'm not informed on what is being proposed or what sort of transmitters they want to use.
I don't see the media advantage of live tracking that can't be accompished right after the task is over. Run the tracks on line before you post the scores so people can watch the race before they know who won. Even the pilots don't know for sure who won until the scores are posted. I see a lot of potential problems with manditory live tracking and very little up side.
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Leadsled
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Post by Leadsled »

Following the X-Alps was hugely fascinating, entertaining and educational. One thing that became clear early on was Christian's coordination, planning, communication and team support was clearly superior to most other teams.

marc
Last edited by Leadsled on Wed, Feb 03 2010, 12:47:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rob Clarkson
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Post by Rob Clarkson »

Using the X-alps web site was brutal. I had a hard time getting it to work. Not really a good comparison any way if that was your implying. If your trying to do something for media like I said put the trak logs up on leanardo and spectators can click on the pilots they want and run there tracks run in real time. Much better than looking at dots on a map updated every ten twenty minutes and trying to figure out what's going on. If you do this a few hours before you post the scores it would add to the suspense.