Smashing rocks with your face

For discussions not directly related to hang gliding.
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Ben Reese
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Joined: Wed, Sep 25 2013, 12:16:20 pm

Post by Ben Reese »

Steve Forslund wrote:Looking at 2013 to 2018 USHPA records of USA pilots some of these occurred out of the country. The paraglider include speed gliders.

36 paraglider fatalities
23 hang glider fatalities
When you figure in number of pilots and flights statistics look worse for hang gliding
Steve,

This one fact is always overlooked or ignored when comparing PG to HG.

The total accidents and injuries for PG are way higher.

HG is more life threatening when they occur due to head and neck.

PG accidents are more life crippling, lower body.

There are way more helicopter rides for PG statistically than HG
even accounting for the higher number of PG pilots…

Emergency chute deployment is another statistic to measure by.
PG pilots rely way too much on safety parachute deployments.

It’s a shame you and others can’t represent the facts in the way
a parent would about contact sports…

We have different agendas.

I am trying to educate and save people.

You are trying to justify death and injury…

Why doesn’t Wills Wing sell PG’s anymore?


B R
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Ben Reese
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Post by Ben Reese »

BilleFly wrote:
Steve Forslund wrote: …
When you figure in number of pilots and flights statistics look worse for hang gliding
Just looking at the 6-months for 2019 ; those flights statistics , are
looking WAY worse for hang gliding.

Changing the Tone a Bunch ; there isn't any excuses for the
death count in HG or PG to be that high. I believe better training
would help Both groups. Reading about how the HG and PG pilot's
died this year ; all of them were totally preventable.

Like i already said ; i use the HG and PG as Tools , for different wind
and weather conditions. I never let pear-pressure , talk me into
launching the HG or the PG ; when things aren't right for flying.


Bille

Bille, we know what you would do.
Everybody knows what you would do, you always tell us..

It’s everyone else who displays un-founded faith in a canopy
that concerns me? Why do they beleive it’s safe when you
obviously don’t. Like this poor young mother from Las Vegas,
NV who crashed at Jean in your home town..

We can agree the numbers of both crashing are way to high this year.


B R
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Tormod
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Location: Oslo, Norway

Post by Tormod »

To compare HG vs PG actions related to the video. What this guy did when the wing collapsed was to the effect of pushing max out in a HG when "going over the falls", ie entering a strong rotor. What hangglider pilots often forget is the dangers we encounter on every thermal flight. A "stiff wing" close to the terrain or in the landing pattern in a HG is for me as scary as a collapse in a PG. Most collapses are as dramatic as having to put the basebar on the ground on landing. Collapses never just happens, it's always conditions the pilot should be aware of that's causing them.

Note that I'm not saying that a collapse, or other stuff that can happen to a paraglider, always are harmless. They can be lethal. However statistics show that the reasons for accidents mostly are, as with hanggliders, failure to correctly judge conditions, overconfidence, risk-taking, incorrectly rigged gliders and bad training. Collapses are a trait in paragliders not worse than the lack of roll control at low speeds in a hangglider. Tell me that turning back into the hill at launch or cartwheeling down the LZ after mushing in and stalling isn't dangerous. It's almost a every day incident and it kills people.

My point is that both sports are equally frakking dangerous and in stead of bashing the other sport we should work to improve safety in our own sport. For me that's both.
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BilleFly
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Location: Vegas

Post by BilleFly »

Tormod wrote:To compare HG vs PG actions related to the video. What this guy did when the wing collapsed was to the effect of pushing max out in a HG when "going over the falls", ie entering a strong rotor. What hangglider pilots often forget is the dangers we encounter on every thermal flight. A "stiff wing" close to the terrain or in the landing pattern in a HG is for me as scary as a collapse in a PG.
…
Gonna omit reference, to correcting PG mistakes , (the PG forum is the place for that).

"Going over the falls"
Two of my best friends died ; because they had NO idea what to
do when they went out the Back-Side of a thermal, with too little
air-speed, and wings had a Low bank-angle. Their nose went down,
and they probably pushed Out , with no air-speed ; the result was
a tumble , then death ! A bit of basic ACRO instruction ; could have
saved Both pilots , their lives.

Before i pull in Under a, (HG or PG) pilot , who already established a
turn direction in a thermal; first thing i do is determine how low is his
bank-angle on the down-wind side or the thermal. A Lot of guys try to
squeeze the Max lift out of a thermal , by using a low bank angle; the
result for slipping out the back of that lift, on the down-wind side of the
turn , (is gonna be a stall, and loss of a Bunch of altitude) even if he
does know how to reestablish his airspeed. I Do Not want that guy ;
falling into ME !!

Partial solution :
Use a bit More airspeed ; even if it's at the expense of a few feet/min
lift. Your not in a competition ; so a few more 360's before Ya top-out
the thermal, are not gonna matter , (and it's a Way safer way to fly).
Tormod wrote: My point is that both sports are equally frakking dangerous and in stead of bashing the other sport we should work to improve safety in our own sport. For me that's both.
That was a Really GOOD post !! :thumbs up:

BIlle
GOOD RUSH !!!
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BilleFly
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Location: Vegas

Post by BilleFly »

Ben Reese wrote:
BilleFly wrote: …
Just looking at the 6-months for 2019 ; those flights statistics , are
looking WAY worse for hang gliding.

…

Bille

Bille, we know what you would do.
Everybody knows what you would do, you always tell us..

…
We can agree the numbers of both crashing are way to high this year.

B R
I noticed, you down-played , that part of my post, a bit !!

WHY ?
Probably because it didn't promote your agenda ?

I am NOT getting sarcastic ; if you want Me to town down the
rhetoric, then you are gonna need to , (at-least Try) to do the
same.

Those statistics, are quite alarming ; and at the moment
Hang gliding is Loosing BAD !! And that is Not Funny (.)

Bille
GOOD RUSH !!!
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Ben Reese
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Post by Ben Reese »

A short term spike in HG accidents does not equal the long
term accident rate of PG.

Your still trying to justify the loss of life and injuries of PG..

HG accidents can be trained out and reduced.

PG accidents cannot be reduced as much by training..

Stop using HG to justify your tragic losses..

The PG craft is flawed..

The most dishonest ones spewing your rhetoric are actual HG pilots
who intimately know both craft..

Be honest and objective if you have enough integrity to do so.

You will come to the honorable conclusion that PG is much more dangerous..

Short of that, your public dishonesty is harming both sports.


BR
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Harry Martin
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Location: Casper, WY

Post by Harry Martin »

Pros and cons…
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Harry
https://HarryMartinCartoons.com
Casper, Wyoming
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Ben Reese
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Post by Ben Reese »

Harry Martin wrote:Pros and cons…

ðÿ‘ðÿ‘ðÿ‘
Steve Forslund
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Post by Steve Forslund »

So the question was asked and answered. The answer was not what Ben Masters wanted so he has ignored it
We all know there are way more paraglider pilots and they fly way more often. Ben why dont you talk to Dustin Martin about paragliding, you certainly dont respect anyone here who doesn't agree with you.
Steve Forslund
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Ben Reese
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Post by Ben Reese »

Steve Forslund wrote:So the question was asked and answered. The answer was not what Ben Masters wanted so he has ignored it
We all know there are way more paraglider pilots and they fly way more often. Ben why dont you talk to Dustin Martin about paragliding, you certainly dont respect anyone here who doesn't agree with you.
I had a reply written a few days ago and it got wiped by some error..

Steve, it is not a matter of respect. That is a dumb reference..

I certainly respect Dustin.. I don’t agree with him or you regarding PG’s.

Your saying I don’t respect people who buy a blue car because I buy a white one..

The cars are exactly the same except color..

PG’s and HG’s are not the same. I am sick and tired of you and others
stuffing them in the same box..

Will talking to Dustin redesign the PG into a safe canopy craft?

You and everyone else singing your tune are in denial of facts..
You and those like you are responsible for a continuing parade of
death and injury that cannot be mitigated…

By not disclosing the truth about PG’s true dangers, you put the sport
of HG at risk because it is locked in the “Dead Zone” with PG by the grip of USHPA..

Congratulations Steve, you have won.

I have not renewed my membership and I am seriously thinking about selling my wings.
I have other aviation choices available to me with the company of more honest pilots.

Sure I can fly without USHPA but the places I love to fly are closed to non USHPA
members..

The latest drama with Reform Vote and our 1st meeting being closed to members
was a complete disappointment… You deserve it… Way to go…

Enjoy the funerals and helicopter rides..

Congratulate yourselves after you grovel to the FAA for a Tandem Exemption, that
pretends to be an instruction flight, when it is not! This last one took 2 years and
USHPA has no explanation as to why?

What an embarrassment…

Watch more sites like Torrey get swallowed up by commercial bullies feeding USHPA.

This sport is built on a house of cards and ignorant individuals who are to lazy
to clean it up..

Those that try are banned and maligned by a litany of special interests…
Throw in a truck load of mis-management and you get exactly what you got..

HG cannot be saved under USHPA while being strangled by PG mis-information..

Frankly it is criminal…

PG will survive outside USA.

But here in the States there will be a lawsuit that has every
PG manufacturer fleeing this country..

I don’t want to be part of that, nor have my name associated with an Org
doomed to extinct itself and betray its members…

Because I have said these things, you will blame me for them when
they come to pass..

You don’t have the maturity, honesty and resolve to solve these problems
among yourselves. Those people like myself abandon you…

But even though I belevive this and don’t have faith in your ranks, I hope
you do survive and fix the gaping holes in your ignorant ship…

Prove my warnings a cry of Wolf…

Without me..


B R