Jeff Shapiro

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Ben Reese
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Post by Ben Reese »

Ok looked at your link, for those who could not see it, here it is.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O8oBm4VLLV8

As I predicted from videos glide LD 2.5:1

Interesting, his friend died just prior to this presentation.
One of the most experienced and a pioneer in the sport.
Very sad. It also makes the points I have been hitting on.

I wish they said how much HP is produced by the 2 jet engines.
However there is no level flight only a slower descent with both engines.
Lasts about 4 min run time..

Yves Rossy uses 4 engines and a fixed wing. Gets gain in height with
double HP and more efficient wing. Engines look the same..

Presenter makes points on lack of human strength for more wing area
of wing suit.

All that I said before without formal research.

If you fly anything you know the stresses encountered with air turbulence.
It is unseen and surprises you often. It would rip your arms out of shoulder
sockets if wing area is much larger at terminal velocity.

Therefore a wing suit at the very best may get 3:1 glide at 90mph.

You need a 4:1 glide at 45-50mph if your going to have any chance at soaring
which also reduces stress on arms by 4 times if you reduce speed by 50%.
It will take some kind of spar to reduce arm and shoulder loads while increasing
wing area by 7 times which will get you about 30 sq'.

I estimate the WS is 4-5 sq' of wing area right now.

A typical HG is about 140 sq' and soars at 17-20mph.

The math is my best estimates but depends on airfoils used?

It would have to be a solid wing or HG type wing that was 2' deep
by 7.5' long on each side.Or 3' by 5' on each side.

It would be best to have a high aspect ratio for best results.

So by simple math a wing suit suspended by human arms is not feasible.
It is a dead end and doomed to fail. Continued attempts will kill many
people including the guy in the video who claims to be an aerodynamic
engineer who just lost his best friend the expert!!

Does this not sound delusional and cultish to anyone else??
Even Arp who claims not to be promoting WS excitement is unable to
face concrete facts in the sicence..

I am just blown away..!

If anyone else can find faults with my conclusions then please correct me.
I don't want to be delusional my self..


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Arp
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Post by Arp »

Ben,

If you gain height above the point the dive began then you will have used energy already built up by the glider not the energy that the dive provided. You will be converting the stored energy into height gain. If the glider were dropped from a height with no energy stored it could not then exceed the height it was dropped from. If that were possible then a glider could dive and climb all day long gaining energy which would be perpetual motion. You even provide the proof that there is a net loss of energy and so argue against yourself.

Converting stored energy into height works for all gliding systems which even allows a WS to alter its flight path. An albatross can continue flying virtually non stop using the energy provided by the wind over the waves but if the wind were to stop then it then has to flap its wings to stay up.

The efficiency of a glider to convert stored energy or to utilise energy from the elements was not the issue. The issue was are wing suits gliders and I think that is now beyond dispute, unless you have any other reason to deny it?
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Arp
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Post by Arp »

Darkcloud,

The thread has gone off track and concentrated on only one of the activities that Jeff Shapiro has taken part in. Ben seems to find other issues to criticise the article by inferring that Jeff's sponsor's are in someway cashing in on the gullibility of the reader and that may lead to the injury or death of those that might follow in Jeff's footsteps.

If Ben is right then anyone writing about extreme sports in a positive way or sponsoring the activity are culpable for those injuries or deaths. Does a sponsor promoting its products, such as clothing or drinks, have a duty of care to the public in general not to advertise in this way?
Government intervention to stop cigarette advertising in grand prix racing and at sporting events has come about because the product itself is harmful, so should they ban sponsorship of events or activities that are also harmful?
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Arp
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Post by Arp »

Here is another motivational video that might be classed as "inspirational" :- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWpqbSL7WAk

Should the motives of Joby Ogwyn or the National Geographic be brought into question for producing it, for the public to see ?
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Arp
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Post by Arp »

As matter of interest for those still viewing and not completely bored by the argument, this is a sketch of a model built and flown around 1960. It shows the design in plan elevation and from front elevation. Powered by a "Jetex" motor which is in fact a rocket for model aircraft. Although not very clear there is a jet engine superimposed to indicate how the full size craft would have looked. Aerodynamic control surfaces are also featured.

It addresses the concerns that Ben raised of arm strength and wing area but at this stage landing was still intended to be by parachute. This is but one of many such designs which were tried with varying degrees of success. One of the designs incorporated a ram inflated wing which pre-dated current wing suits by at least 30 years.
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Ben Reese
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Post by Ben Reese »

Tobacco companies used clean adventurous life style portraits to sell a deadly item.

KAVU and other companies use adventurous activities to give you the impression
their items being sold put you in that element of activity. But they don't tell you
how dangerous the activity is even when their own sponsored athletes die doing it.
They don't say WS jumping is a highly dangerous choice, a 1:6 chance of death!

Any logical person can see the link and wonder if this is in fact a moral relationship?

Just wait until one of these sponsored athletes is killed wearing that companies clothes
clearly visible! Just watch how fast that sponsor drops that idea of promoting their clothes..

This is the deadliest sports activity in the world today and quite possibly the deadliest
sport for fun in the history of the world!

It is insulting to call it aviation to all those souls who lost their lives making aviation safe
for everyone who had ever flown even as passengers.

It is BASE jumping with a costume on called a WIngSuit with no wings!! It is a mini parachute
used for directional falling!! Human bomb dropping more akin to suicide than sporting!

The arguments in the last 18 pages prove every opinion I make here. Reposting your Jeff
Story will not erase this evidence. All your doing is proving you don't care about saving lives.
You don't care about educating people about the true danger of WS jumping.

Shame on you "Darkcloud" your name is fitting since you come from and are going to a dark place.

Arp, your like a parrot who keeps saying "jump, jump, fly, fly" because you know some words
and like a parrot knows not what they say!! Your arguments are inexcusable because your smarter
than a parrot but not by much…

Darkcloud, you did not start a thread here. You posted a video to highlight a sport which is not
related to hang gliding. It's like me posting a bicycle racing video here and starting a protest
with irrelevant content. I hang glide and I ride a bike, I even designed a bike!!

Guess what, more people,die on bikes than Hang Gliders or even WS jumping!!
Billions of people ride bikes, even more than drive cars!
Everyone who has flown a hang glider rides a bike. Therefore bike riding is realivity safe per capita.

Now if you Wing Suit Base Jump you have a 1:6 chance of death!!

But this is not a site devoted to cycling, nor is it devoted to Base Jumping and promoting the
most dangerous sport in the world.

Enjoy learning about the dangers of Wing Suit Base Jumping since we are replaying inspiring videos.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V5LfUiJzuPU

""The most impressive thing about SJT "Space Jump Training" is how tough the Go Pro cameras are..""


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Arp
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Post by Arp »

Ben:-

"Just wait until one of these sponsored athletes is killed wearing that companies clothes
clearly visible! Just watch how fast that sponsor drops that idea of promoting their clothes.."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news ... nt-8716996

This and others have happened without the sponsor dropping out. Without sponsorship many sports would not be what they are today, including hang gliding.
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Ben Reese
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Post by Ben Reese »

Arp,
I am so tired of you guys bringing WS to the relevance of
Teir 1 aviation sporting events..

Red Bull Air Raceing is highly regulated and extremely safety
oriented.. Exhibition Aerobatics are also in this catagory..

You are a moron to compare dummies jumping off cliffs
in clown suits to an event like these..

Your example although tragic is multitudes safer in practice..

It's not relevant and almost all pilots would tell you the same..

Joe Faust please come forward and help educate these dummies..

I dearly miss you and right now you are needed on the OZ Report..

Joe, don't you have some historical evidence that this WS craz was tried and abandoned
several times in our aeronautical past? Proving these guys are nothing new except small
cameras and social media.. Help me expose this disregard for safety for what it is.



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Last edited by Ben Reese on Sun, Jan 01 2017, 09:35:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Arp
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Post by Arp »

Ben:- "Red Bull Air Raceing is highly regulated and extremely safety
oriented.. Exhibition Aerobatics are also in this catagory.."

And yet pilots still die. Aircraft and pilots operate on the limits and this attracts publicity putting the sponsors name before potential customers.

Red Bull also sponsors WS flying :- http://www.redbull.com/us/en/adventure/ ... -aces-2016 http://www.redbull.com/us/en/adventure/ ... jump-rozov

Other Red Bull events:- http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/red-bull-stunt ... ath-464619 http://reviews.mtbr.com/the-angry-singl ... nge-or-die
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Ben Reese
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Post by Ben Reese »

People die choking at restaurants..

Just think about that??

But if 1:6 of the customers who ate a Arp's diner choked to death
eating Arp's special pot pies or bangers or what ever Britts like, you
have a problem!!

Lots of law suits, loss of business and shame from the community at large..

You want to jump from an airplane with a WS then no one cares.. Enjoy..

You jump,off a mountain in wing suit, your a moron..

Just like the people who eat at Arp's diner and watch their friends and family
choke to death are morons also..

Arp your arguments have got us all choked up..

Bye now,

Go ahead take the last word..

Then stop there if you can..

Finally moved to the off topic bucket.
That is where this thread belongs..

B R
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