Off Topic - Olbermann on Habeas Corpus

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JBBenson
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Post by JBBenson »

I find it very amusing that the representatives of the Right are arguing for more governmental control and intrustion,
and the representatives of the Left are arguing to be left alone.

That is rich.
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George Stebbins
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Post by George Stebbins »

Jacmac wrote:
George Stebbins wrote: Mr. jacmac is taken into custody by the Bush administration, because they don't like his politics. They say he is an enemy combatant. They say he is a non-citizen. (Actually, they don't need to say anything, just keep him locked up.) He is neither an enemy combatant or a non-citizen. How does he prove it? He has no right of Habeus Corpus. He has no right to a lawyer. He cannot contact anyone. He is held incommunicado. He cannot prove that he is a citizen, because he is not allowed to do so. He cannot prove he is not an enemy combatant, because he has no right of Habeus Corpus.

"They won't do that", I hear you say! But they already have! The administration has already arrested American Citizens as enemy combatants on US soil. They have denied them access to lawyers, and held them for years without charges. In at least one of those cases, they KNEW that the person was not only a citizen, but they knew he was not the person they had originally thought he was, and had overwheming evidence of his innocence. His crime? He was a Muslim lawyer and had defended Muslim (and other) clients that the administration didn't like. That's it, he just did his job as a lawyer. Only the fact that he had friends on the outside who knew he had been taken and tracked down the facts got him out. That and the fact that the government of Spain, who the administration claimed had evidence of his guilt publicly stated that the US administration was totally mistaken. We can't all count on the government of Spain, eh? The administration let him go, admitting that he was not guilty of anything. Oops. So sorry. Months of his life down the drain. Just be glad that they didn't torture him yet.
What is this lawyers name? I defy you to come up with the name of one US citizen who has been charged as working with or for terrorists, whether in combat or not, and denied the right to a trial in a US Federal Court before a US Federal judge. Every US citizen that has been picked up for being associated with Al Qaeda, caught shooting at American Forces while fighting with Al Qaeda, or picked up in the commission of a terrorist act (ala the shoe bomber) has been given a trial in a US federal court. This has been true even if the US citizen has been caught in the act outside US territory. Not one US Citizen has been put in Guantanamo.

No government official can take away your citizenship; I don't have to worry about being seen as a political enemy of the state, stripped of citizenship, and denied the right to Habeus Corpus. The idea that what was signed into law could ever apply to someone like me is laughable. I just don't subscribe to this apocalyptic vision that you and others seem to think is occuring. There have been and always will be mistakes made by the Government. I'm sure that are occasional bad apples with sinister motives within the Government. I don't believe that George Bush is out ruin the American way of life and lock up everyone that disagrees with him or his policies.
His name was Brandon Mayfield. And by the way, while Jose Padilla (an American Citizen, arrested in the US) eventually is getting a trial. He has been held in custody for years, while the Bush Administration denied him the rights of Habeus Corpus. They refused him access to his family and to lawyers. FOR YEARS. He may in fact be guilty, but he may not. In fact, the Justice department declined to press the charges that they originally claimed he was being held on. Not enough evidence, it appears. But they did get the political boost from claiming to have captured a terrorist. That's what's important.

But back to Mr. Mayfield. He was innocent. It was known by the FBI (who arrested him) that he was innocent. They claimed they had evidence, but they did not. They were told by the Spanish Government that this wasn't the guy they thought claimed it was. The Spaniards had fingerprints of the other guy. They did not match Mr. Mayfield's fingerprints. The FBI knew this. This was a political arrest. And Mr. Mayfield is a white-middle class lawyer. Imagine if it was a Muslim cab-driver, a black janitor or some low-life hang glider pilot. He'd still be in jail. And we'd never know about it.

The whole point of Habeus Corpus is that it protects your right to be seen/heard by a court. Without it, you can be held indefinitely, and without anyone else knowing about it. Is that the kind of country you want to live in?

I agree with alexlandels, but I'd put it differently. That level of trust in you leaders is foolish. I'm not sure foolish is even a strong enough word. No matter what one thinks of our leaders, they are people with flaws. (Roosevelt and the Japanese detention camps is a great example.) The Constitution is there to protect us from those flaws. It doesn't always work, but it sure slows down the mistakes. Weakening it is foolish, short-sighted and cowardly.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin

And by the way, they are likely to lose both.

You are over 10 times more likely to die in an automobile accident than you are to be killed in a terrorist incident in the US EVEN IN 2001. Yet we don't ban cars. Americans are massively over-afraid of terrorists. Yet we make little effort to solve the Nuclear Weapons proliferation problem, the only way that terrorists can currently kill very large numbers of Americans.

Cowardly, short-sighted, willing to give up rights to avoid tiny risks, but not willing to pay a few extra bucks to avoid the really big risks. Almost enough to make one a pessimist. :wink:
Last edited by George Stebbins on Wed, Nov 01 2006, 11:53:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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George Stebbins
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Post by George Stebbins »

One additional item: The Constitution gives the right of Habeus Corpus to "persons", not to Citizens. Thus, until it is changed, even non-citizens who are resident in this country have the right to Habeus Corpus. One can argue about illegal immigrants, or about whether that is what the Constitution SHOULD say, but most of the Constitutions rights are designated to persons, not Citizens. The right to vote is obviously one that is designated to Citizens only, for example.

On a personal note, I find it offensive that an American would say that legal residents shouldn't have rights just because they aren't citizens. Such is the bigotry of my home country. Sigh.
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George Stebbins
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Post by George Stebbins »

JBBenson wrote:I find it very amusing that the representatives of the Right are arguing for more governmental control and intrustion,
and the representatives of the Left are arguing to be left alone.

That is rich.
What makes you think I'm from the Left? Libertarians are also fighting to protect the right of Habeus Corpus. The Left, the Far Left, the Far Right, and much of the middle all agree. Only those trying to use fear to further their political aims (and those succumbing to that fear) are in favor of getting rid of that right. OK, and some neo-facists, but I'm assuming that we don't have any of those here.
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JBBenson
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Post by JBBenson »

Only someone as vain as a hang-glider pilot would assume I am talking about him! :D

Generally, a People get the government they deserve. Perhaps the American Experiment is over.

It was a good run, I suppose.